Greg Spawton is a co-founder, composer and bass guitarist for the band Big Big Train. Their music is inspired by British folklore, but universal in the way it brings stories to life via personal and emotional viewpoints. Big Big Train are three-time winners of the prestigious Progressive Music Awards (winners of “Breakthrough Act” in 2013 and “Band of the Year” and “Live Event” in 2016).

Greg took time to talk to Coreopsis Journal of Myth and Theater, despite his busy schedule of rehearsal and preparation for a series of live concert performances that will take place at Cadogan Hall in London on September 29, 30 and October 1 2017.

CJMT:  During our last interview you were still in the middle of recording the Grimspound album.  I have gathered a few things you were feeling at the time and thought it might be nice to have your perspective now after having a little more time with the music, as well as getting some listener reaction since Grimspound’s April 28 release. You said: “The whole album has just been a very easy process… As Grimspound is more of an ‘accidental’ album it has been a nicely relaxed process… Right now we are in the middle of the recording period and so the potential that we can see in the new songs hasn’t yet been fully realized. My hunch is that Grimspound will be a very strong release. But we’ll need a few months (possibly years) to get enough space away from the music to understand where it sits in terms of our other albums.

Greg Spawton:  The response to Grimspound from listeners was very positive. Reviews were good and it has been our quickest selling release with our first showing in the national UK rock charts. I also get the impression that many listeners have subsequently gone back to Folklore after some time away, and are enjoying that album maybe a bit more than they remembered. Aside from the songs we are playing in the live set, I haven’t listened to either of those albums in the last few months and therefore I still haven’t had enough time with them for objectivity to set in. A bit more dust needs to settle.

CJMT:  That is great news, Greg. Hitting a new sales record and placing on the national charts can’t help but catch more music listeners’ attention. But it is hard to know whether the increased sales and chart attention are due to a general increase of your fan base or the work of Grimspound itself.

When I hear Grimspound I hear a very strong collection of songs that pulls me in to listen to the entire album and leads me from song to song a bit like the Sgt. Pepper album once did. The rhythms, the motifs, the subjects and sentiments all work together for the greater good of the whole album. It doesn’t hurt that the “Meadowland” melody and lyrics get a reprise inside the song “A Mead Hall in Winter”. That is a very powerful unifying element.

Spawton:  Yes, you are right, we have no idea of knowing whether Grimspound itself has been the main driver of a bigger audience, or if it’s just evidence of natural growth, with Grimspound simply capturing a snapshot of the audience at this particular time. The reprise of “Meadowland” that you mention is important to us. We are fond of “A Mead Hall in Winter” as a piece of music, but the lyrics are also important to us as they act, in parts, as a kind of mission statement. We felt they were worth restating and developing a bit. And with themes crossing the boundaries between songs, it all adds to the album feeling like a cohesive listen.

CJMT:  One of the strengths of Big Big Train compositions is that the music and the lyrics have a poetic way of portraying emotion that gives them a cinematic power even in pastoral works like “Meadowland”. The Grimspound album seems to utilize that strength even better than past works, perhaps because both Rikard Sjöblom and Rachel Hall have been integrated for a longer period of time, and as an eight-piece band Big Big Train has found it’s way to run on all eight cylinders. Was there a conscious decision not to use horns on these pieces, Greg, or was it just the way the pieces came together?  

Spawton:  The brass is an integral part of our sound, but we try to deploy them for maximum impact when we need that colliery band pathos that they bring to the music. Some of the songs would have worked beautifully with a brass arrangement, and I think those would have included “Meadowland” and “Mead Hall”. However, we were working at quite a pace over the autumn, and brass needs to be both arranged and then recorded and it would have been very difficult for us to find a slot in Dave Desmond’s schedule to achieve that. So, we arranged the Grimspound songs on the basis that they would not feature brass and then, with the additional time we had for the new songs on The Second Brightest Star, we made sure that we could get the demos to Dave in time to slot in a brass session in the Spring. Dave Desmond actually said something quite interesting when he saw Grimspound get into the charts with no brass on the album. He said it was like winning the league but being sat on the substitute bench for the whole season.

CJMT:  Sometimes things work out for non-musical reasons but have a musical effect nonetheless, such as having a tight schedule to work and not having the time to fit in the brass recording. As I hear the songs on Grimspound, they have greater strength without the brass because Big Big Train’s arrangements found a way to be powerful as well as melodic and soulful with the core eight musicians. Rachel Hall also figures more strongly on Grimspound as she is playing violin, viola and cello and doing so with multiple lines and sections on several pieces.

Spawton:  Yes, that’s a good point. The absence of something can open up other opportunities. One of my very slight frustrations with Folklore was that Rachel was mainly heard as part of a string quartet. She has a strong individual musical personality and we did actually make a firm decision on Grimspound to feature Rachel more prominently as an individual player rather than as part of an ensemble. And where she wanted supporting cello or viola, she did all that herself for the most part.

CJMT:  Rachel Hall’s playing seems stronger and more rhythmic as well since she is not necessarily part of a string quartet. She is also quite adept on “Brave Captain” at adding to the haunting feeling in the quiet section that starts around 7:40. Her string playing has a unique ability to be melodic, haunting and powerful, as on “Experimental Gentlemen” at about 4:20. Perhaps the lack of brass opened the door to make more room for Rachel to add to the songs on Grimspound.

Spawton:  Rachel is perfect for Big Big Train. She has an ear for a great melody which means a lot of melodic interest can be added to songs without relying solely on vocals. And she has a deep knowledge of folk music which means that when we stray into folk territory, it isn’t a pastiche. Danny has a jazz background so, again, we can properly explore some fusion or jazz influences on songs like “The Leaden Stour” and “On the Racing Line”. Having Danny and Rachel in the band allows us to lay claim to a fair bit of musical territory. I am pleased that Rachel can also be heard on Rikard’s new solo album and on the new Cosmograf album. She deserves to be in demand.

CJMT:  Rachel Hall and Danny Manners expand Big Big Train’s musicality in so many directions that having both their influences reach full bloom on Grimspound may be one of the aspects that makes the album so powerful as a start-to-finish listen. Rachel Hall’s song “The Passing Widow” on The Second Brightest Star gets a double measure of Danny Manners with his piano and upright bass playing. The combination of the two is all the instrumental accompaniment this gentle and moving song needs. When Rachel provides a little harmony to David Longdon’s vocal it shows excellent taste.

Speaking of The Second Brightest Star, it seems like such a well-guarded secret to release that album on June 23rd so shortly after the April 28th release of Grimspound. Were there some special factors that lead to the decision to release the album in this unique fashion?

Spawton:  Pretty much everybody has a two or three month campaign ahead of album releases these days and we took that route with both Folklore and Grimspound. This approach helps to build up a head of steam for a release and gives multiple opportunities for connecting with potential buyers as artists drip-feed streamed singles and videos and interviews etc. Having done this twice in less than a year, the downside of it becomes clear as well, which is that it feels interminable. So, we thought we would vary things a bit and go to the opposite extreme with a surprise release, something that is still quite rare and certainly different for us. One of the nice things is that it makes people feel unsure about what we may be cooking up. It keeps the listeners on their toes.

CJMT:  I think it worked well, Greg, to change things up a little and to step outside what has become a ritual for both musician and fan. It seems that it has also resulted in a good showing on the Progressive Rock sales charts. Have you any feel for how The Second Brightest Star is faring by comparison to Grimspound with regard to sales and listener reaction?

The Second Brightest Star is a great companion album to Grimspound; it has a late-night blues and jazz feel to it. It’s great for continuing to imbibe those Big Big Train melodies and themes but with a bit of a cool blues and jazz vibe. “Skylon” in particular has some of those vocal harmonies you might have found in jazz from the 1950’s, which is totally appropriate to the subject matter.

Spawton:  I think it’s nicely different. Again, it’s too early to pass proper judgement, but it may end up being one of my favourite BBT releases. The title track is David at the top of his game, “Haymaking” is a joyful piece, “Skylon” conjures up some nice images and I like the run of tracks from “London Stone”, through “Passing Widow” and onto “The Leaden Stour”. It is like a little piano-led suite. Plus, the bonus material of longer versions of previously released songs adds a fair bit of interest. As for sales, The Second Brightest Star was always a companion piece and never intended to be seen as the full new studio album and so we didn’t arrange record-shop distribution, haven’t put any advertising into the release and sent out hardly any promo copies. We also delayed the iTunes and streaming release until mid July (in order to increase the chances of the release remaining a secret). However, despite all that, it has sold very well and reached top 10 on the UK Rock Charts. So, we still seem to be making progress and I hope we can continue moving forward in the next few years.

CJMT:  Some tiny similarities also occur between Grimspound  and The Second Brightest Star; they both start with a long high note and move into a descending minor scale, and both songs feature a stand-out moving guitar solo, and then a palate-cleansing lively instrumental tune follows as the the second piece before leading into the third song which, on both albums, is about historical events that shaped the UK.

It is also great to hear”Haymaking”’s rollicking Celtic feel and cool to hear Rachel Hall write such a nice tune with allows a little call and response between her strings and the guitar. And you are certainly right about the piano-led suite aspect of the tracks that move into “The Leaden Stour”. The longer versions of the previously released tracks also contribute to what I call the late-night listening vibe of The Second Brightest Star, when you hear something that is different and yet calls up a memory of something from the past, it can be a very good almost dream-like feeling.

Spawton:  Yes, that’s a good spot, the track listing of The Second Brightest Star does echo the sequencing of Grimspound. For me, some of the writing on the new album is close to soundtrack music at times. And I like to think of people listening to The Second Brightest Star outside on a warm summer’s evening, with the light dimming and the stars beginning to show. That would create a nice backdrop.

CJMT:  Yes. In fact listening to both Grimspound as well as The Second Brightest Star I have kept coming back to ‘cinematic’ as one word that seems to exemplify the general feeling of both albums. By cinematic I don’t necessarily mean big or grandiose. A song like “Meadowland” paints a picture in a quiet way that conveys emotion as well as the thought content, and that to me is just as cinematic as “Experimental Gentleman” which is big. One of the unique strengths of Big Big Train’s composing is that real-life situations are depicted in an emotionally accessible manner, like on “Brave Captain” or “Skylon”, and the music and the feeling reinforce one another and give the listener both a memorable melody and an uplifting thought. It usually means that fans of Big Big Train’s music have both an intellectual and an emotional attachment. You can sense that when fans frequently say that they ‘filled with tears’ or felt a lump in their throat as they listened.

Spawton:  That is exactly what we are seeking to do. Even with a ‘big’ story in the background, there should be time and space for the humanity to come through. The story of the “Brave Captain” is an epic tale, but the early parts of the song are scenes from a family childhood in the 1970’s where David first ‘meets’ this local hero. “A Mead Hall in Winter” has a big story of the Enlightenment, but the close-up is of friendship and companionship. If a song doesn’t touch people in some way, there is no point in it really.

CJMT:  The ‘big story’ has the effect of lending interest as well as gravitas to the composition, but by framing the story or viewpoint through a personal and emotional lens, Big Big Train’s work becomes universal. The framework of many songs may reside in British folklore and history but the way they are written gives the songs universally understandable themes. Both “Brave Captain” and “A Mead Hall in Winter” take the listener on a journey much like a movie would, with many different scenes and feelings. But that is also true of the much shorter piece “Grimspound”, which takes the listener across time to the Bronze Age site on Dartmoor in Devon, and brings the listener out to the ageless stars overhead. The vocal call and response ending to the song “Grimspound” is not only a mini-masterpiece of vocal harmony writing, but it ends with the beauty of starlight hanging overhead eternally.

When you couple writing about big themes through a personal viewpoint with writing music that involves the listener in a cinematic fashion, it is no wonder that Grimspound and The Second Brightest Star have worked so well.

Spawton:  In many respects, the big story told through personal experiences is a bit like the approach taken by many history writers. If a historian is tackling a major event or series of events, that story can be told in an academic way. But the events themselves will normally feature strong, interesting individual characters and if the historian chooses to take a more personal approach it will draw the reader in. History is more engaging when told that way and I think songs are more involving when the writer can find those small, personal stories. Once you know what a song is going to be about, you need to find the angle. How are we best going to tell that tale? On the title track of Grimspound, David is reflecting on some big subjects, but those thoughts are expressed in a way where the listener might feel they are there on the moor looking up at the stars.

CJMT:  In addition to engaging the listener through a personal approach to historical situations, several of the songs on the Grimspound album are also made more engaging to the listener’s ear by the addition of other voices. For instance on “Ivy Gate” where David Longdon and Judy Dyble sing lead lines, but you also have the chorus contributing their part to tell the tale.

Spawton:  “The Ivy Gate” was specifically arranged with Judy in mind, so we were very pleased when she agreed to sing on the song. Otherwise, we are blessed with a number of strong and distinctive voices in the band alongside David’s, namely Nick, Rikard and Rachel, and I am sure that we will continue to explore the opportunities that gives us in terms of vocal arrangements. At the last set of shows, I also sang some backing vocal lines, as did Andy. After the shows we listened carefully to the recordings of the gigs and it became apparent that we weren’t adding much, so the focus will be on the four main voices.

CJMT:  Having four strong and distinctive voices in Big Big Train should open up so much possibility for writing for subsequent albums, and knowing the best way to handle live background vocals will help if BBT has the opportunity for more live performances. As a last question, are you focusing more on composing now, or working on arrangements for live performances for Big Big Train?

Spawton:  Most of our time right now is being spent on working out the details of the live arrangements, learning parts, thinking about the presentation of the shows, including the lights and projections, and sorting transport and accommodation and other practical things. The plan will be to take a few days off after the shows and then we’ll be back to writing the next album. We are also finishing a little bit of recording work at the moment as well. More news on that in the autumn.

CJMT:  Thank you for your time Greg. It was great to finally hear and enjoy Grimspound since we talked about it’s writing and recording during our last interview. The Second Brightest Star has been a delightful surprise to hear so soon after Grimspound’s release, and it is a great companion album that also stands on it’s own merits. Best of luck for your live concerts at Cadogan Hall on September 29-30, and October 1, 2017.

Dr. Steven Blomerth